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Elisa: Okay. So what you taught your followers, it’s still your own truth on the other side? Is that what you’re saying?
L. Ron: No, it was my own truth while I was there so I don’t regret it because everything has a time and place and reason. From sitting over here I don’t judge it, because from here I understand exactly what mechanisms are behind each and every contract that was entered into with the tenants of that “religion” (Celestine makes air quotes) that I created. So, I don’t judge it.
Elisa: Do you still believe in engrams and auditing?
L. Ron: No.
Elisa: Really? What can you say more about that?
L. Ron: So I’m over on this side here and while I don’t regret anything that went on, would it be something I’d like to experience again and explore again? No no, I’ve done that already. It is now going to be my experience to go to the other side of what I taught and what I did. So while I did it and I don’t judge it, I don’t feel the need to back there either.
Elisa: Okay, what do you think about, once you crossed over, what do you think about the other side? Did anything about it surprise you? Was it what you expected?
Celestine: Well he’s thinking about this kind of hard because he looks at me and he goes “you know, when I was on that side I had my doubts about what was over here, and there were some thoughts for um.. Two things I thought before I passed away was: Nothingness or die.
L Ron: We had one or the other.
L. Ron: So I passed away and I got nothingness at first and when I had a thought here I was on the other side, it was quite dis concerning because the vibration is so very different between the two worlds, and when you wake up from a really long sleep and a long dream and you’re still kind of tired is kind of what I felt like. As my energy came around and I looked around I saw familiars that had gone before me, I realized that I was on the other side and there really was something and not nothingness. And from there I had three people come to me and get me oriented into this new vibration. And then the most amazing and emotional experience that I walked through was when I had my life review. And while I still don’t regret this because honestly you sit there and you observe and you don’t judge your own actions.
Elisa: Yeah, that’s true.
L. Ron: You feel though, you feel everything that you caused. You feel your joy, you feel others joy, you feel others pain that you’ve caused.. and it was hard for me because I was still feeling human as well so..
L. Ron: Emotions were so hard to process, because I realized at one point in that life review what an impact my energy, my existence, had on the world today.
L. Ron: and that’s when I lost the regrets. And that’s when I lost the emotion. And that’s when it all came to me that saying, what everybody says, everything has it’s own time and it’s own place, and what’s supposed to happen will happen, it’s the utter and complete truth.
Elisa: Well what was your spiritual mission? I mean, what were you here to teach for example.
Celestine: So this Elisa, he’s been talking to me about this for a couple days because you know everything you hear/read/see about Mr. L, Ron Hubbard is not in alignment with something that I would practice in my own life. But he came to me, and I had this conversation, and we’re going to have it again. Why in the world, what impact, positive impact, could your life have had, and what was the purpose?
Celestine: And he looked at me, and he’s doing it again. He stepped forward and he goes:
L. Ron: I want to teach people that you need to think for yourself.
Elisa: Mm, I bet.
L. Ron: What made me so huge is that nobody wanted to think for themselves, so I’ll do it, and you know what? I’m going to think for you, and I’m going to tell you how to act, and everybody did exactly as I said, whether they liked it or not, they didn’t use their own free will their own free thought, and that’s the biggest thing I came to teach everybody.
Elisa: Well that’s pretty big. That is pretty big. What do you think about Remini, coming out with this special, talking trash about Scientology. What do you think about that.
Celestine: Well I asked him this too and he’s still sitting there and he’s got the biggest smile on his face and he says:
L. Ron: I think she’s incredibly brave. I give her kudos for bringing the absurdness of many of the things that I teach and people follow to the surface because there will be many that see her and her courage and her ability to think and feel for herself, and want to do the same. I give her kudos, and this might sound a little odd for me, but don’t forget I’m over here. (laughing)
Elisa: That’s true. Are we in danger by possibly publishing this? Is Scientology gonna get after us and kill us or whatever. I mean, are we in danger?
Celestine: He says no, we’re not rebuking, he’s not rebuking anything he said or did.
Elisa: Okay. Ah well that’s true. Um, (reading) could you please ask L. Ron Hubbard if he turned his novels or aspects of his novels and used them in Scientology. Because you wrote a lot. You were a prolific writer.
L. Ron: Yes, I loved to write.
L. Ron: It was a way for me to release so much, and there was so much going on in my head, I didn’t sleep like many people sleep. And to answer your question, yes there are a lot of things that came out of my novels that went into Scientology, because it made sense to me.
Elisa: Okay. In his life he was quoted as saying that if he ever wanted to become rich he would invent a religion. Is that what you ended up doing?
Celestine: He says that um, he doesn’t like the word “religion” specifically.
Celestine: So in my head I said what about the word “cult”?
Elisa: Yeah, I was gonna ask that. Was it a cult?
Celestine: What about the word cult? He says “well the word ‘cult’ certainly does fit the definition that the Websters dictionary infers. He says I prefer to think of it more as a “way of thinking” (doing air quotes) rather than a religion, a way of living.
Elisa: Well was it a cult? Oh, go ahead.
Celestine: He says yeah, he’s admitting that according to Websters definition it would infer that the way he ran that group was cult-ish. He agrees.
Elisa: Now, why?
L. Ron: Because anywhere that there is mind control.
Elisa: Oh! I see.
L. Ron: would indicate a cult situation. And did I control people’s minds? Yes, and I still do through my teachings.
Elisa: So you deemed it a religion. I guess was it for tax benefits?
L Ron: Absolutely.
Elisa: Okay, now that you’ve passed do you think your church is relevant? Do you think your church is doing more harm than good, and will the church be dismantled? Like that’s going to happen.
L. Ron: Eventually it will change. Dismantled? No. It will change. Is it still relevant? Yes it’s relevant to many people’s lives. Why don’t you ask?. Lots of movie stars is what I’ll say.
Elisa: I know. Yeah, Tom Cruise.
L. Ron: All of the movie stars. Is it relevant to them? Absolutely. Do they feel relevant, yes, and they make a lot of money so the world thinks them relevant. Will it remain, always be relevant? Well that depends on how many people don’t like to think for themselves.
Elisa: Yeah. So what kind of person, their characteristics, are drawn to Scientology?
L Ron: A lot of people are looking for a community and looking for belonging, and for people that think and feel the same way. So you see, they come to the Church of Scientology and I tell them how to think. You know when you’re giving birth you don’t say a word, you don’t speak to people that are not in the church. I tell them how to think, so now they all think alike.
L. Ron: So they feel very much like a community because I’ve told them how to think and how to feel alike and they all feel like me. And then they get more people to do that.
Elisa: Yeah. Draw more people in. Did you ever have a genuine intent to help people with Scientology?
Celestine: So, he’s so unapologetic about this honestly.
Elisa: That’s fine.
L. Ron: Again, being a narcissist, megalomaniac, whatever the psychiatrist wants to deem me, my only interest is in my own benefit. And again, everybody feels like a church, a religion, a group needs to have some kind of benefit to human kind, so they brought that in and it benefited me. Was it truly what I wanted to do on the basis of what I started? No.
Elisa: Okay. All right. What happened to Miscavige’s wife? I didn’t know anything happened to her.
Celestine: So he’s talking about how she’s one of the ones waking up to the fact that what’s going on isn’t exactly what aligns with her belief system.
Celestine: And it’s very dangerous to him. She has been put in hiding? Is that what I’m going to say?
Celestine: She’s alive. This woman’s alive he says, but she’s just kept far far away from the public, and she has keepers. She won’t ever escape unless they let her.
Elisa: So she’s a captive.
L. Ron: Yes.
Elisa: Alight. Some people say you raped and molested women in the church of Scientology, is that true?
L Ron: Yes.
Elisa: Ugh, how many? And why? Why?
Celestine: He’s not giving me a number. The “why” is because “it gave me power”.
Elisa: And it’s part of your narcissism thing. The second part to her question is “didn’t you actually begin this church because of your severe narcissism and control issues”, and I think you kind of intimated that’s the case, right?
L. Ron: Absolutely.
Elisa: Okay. How many, if any, people have you killed or had killed?
L. Ron: I have not killed anybody.
Celestine: And that’s all he’s going to say.
Elisa: Did you have anybody killed? (long pause) Come on what’s the worst that can happen to you! You’re dead. Jesus.
Celestine: He laughed at that Elisa.
L. Ron: those words never left my mouth, but I had many people around me. Many handlers. Many people to do anything I wanted. I didn’t have to say, “make sure that person goes away forever”. They knew their job and knew what to do without me saying it.
Elisa: I understand. Okay. Lets see. As a prolific writer that you were, were you even a little addicted to writing so many books, literally thousands of hours in that state, and why so many under an alias name? So were you addicted to writing and why did you have so many alias?
L. Ron: Absolutely I was addicted to writing. It fed my ego.
Elisa: Ah, okay. Why the alias?
L. Ron: I could be anybody I wanted to be and not be judged with the alias.
Elisa: Oh. Okay. Now, you’re earlier novels covered (inaudible) much science fiction, fantasy, futuristic type stuff. Were you downloading these stories from something else? Or did you see them in visions, or in meditation or anything like that? Were you seeing into the future? I don’t know, whatever.
L. Ron: There’s a little bit of all that going on. I had an incredible imagination from spending a quite alone childhood, but people when they dream do astral project. I remembered so many of my vivid dreams and that’s where a lot of that came from. Not in such a deep sleep that I didn’t remember everything. I didn’t sleep much. I was always half way between awake and asleep and that’s when I got so much of this. I got up and I wrote it down, and I thought I was the smartest most amazing person in the world for writing each and every one of those stories.
Elisa: Tell me about your childhood actually. Tell me about your Mother. (joking) No, tell me about your parents, your siblings if you had any, and what was your childhood like.
L. Ron: I felt very ignored as a child with my parents. They both worked very hard. I spent a lot of time by myself and I felt invalid.
L. Ron: My opinion was not heard.
Celestine: And one of his parents died young, he’s talking, which left the other parent to provide for everything which even, he got less attention.
L. Ron: Yeah but that’s where it all started. That’s where my great imagination came in because I had to create things in my mind without so much input. Once I got to school I loved to read.
Elisa: Okay. Did you have a mental illness? As defined by DSM blah blah blah..
L. Ron: Some people call narcissism an illness.
Elisa: Narcissism is a personality disorder.
Celestine: Right. So as far as like bipolar or anything like that, or chemical imbalance, he’s saying no.
Celestine: He just created this incredible. wow. Okay here’s what he said.
L. Ron: When I was little and I felt so invalid I created. Manifested this incredible vision of who I wanted to be, and that everybody would love and adore me, and everybody would pay attention and hang on to every word. How is that for the ultimate manifestation?
Elisa: That’s the ultimate.
Celestine: he said he really liked to study and to learn though. He was obsessed with learning. He was obsessed with reading.
Elisa: Nothing wrong with that. Are you disappointed with the way Scientology turned out, and the way it’s being handled now? The way it’s being portrayed in the press?
L. Ron: No I’m not disappointed because at some point in every energy, when there are things that have imbalances, it all becomes crystal clear and as laid out, and that’s the way it should be because I gathered all these people who don’t want to think for themselves. It comes to a point where there are people going “hey, maybe this isn’t for me, and maybe this isn’t right”, and it puts out to the media, and other systems change within. You know you asked if there is going to be a break down or disbanding of this church, and I said no, it’s not going to break down, but it’s going to be different, from all of these complications and everything that’s going out into the media right now. It’s gonna change immensely.
Elisa: In a good way or not so good way?
L. Ron: Not so good if you were of my ‘regime’, good for people though. What’s going to happen is a lot of the good things, the good ideas that I did come up to help people, will be kept and brought forward, and the other things that are not so helpful will be left to the side.
Elisa: Well don’t you think it’s good for people to think for themselves?
L. Ron: Absolutely, that was the whole point of my existence and my path there. Well, I took it to the nth level. How do you know to think for yourself unless that’s entirely taken away from you?
Elisa: Oh. That’s powerful.
L. Ron: That’s very powerful, and worse yet here’s more powerful, it wasn’t taken away from them, they gave it away.
Elisa: They did give it away, that’s true. So do you think the press is being unfair to you and Scientology?
L. Ron: Had you asked me that while I was standing on the ground, I would have said “oh, hell yeah”, but, from this side I understand that as everything else the press is trying to sensationalize, which is okay because there’s a lot of things there that are very fucked up.
Elisa: Okay. All right. With your new perspective on the other side what would you say to practicing Scientologists today?
L. Ron: From the other side, not only do I have to say this to practicing Scientologists, but I want to tell everybody, in every religion and every walk of life, don’t give away your free will.
Elisa: I know, yeah.
L. Ron: Don’t give away your right to think for yourself. It’s not always easy, and you may think that you make the worst decisions ever, but they’re your decisions to learn from.
Elisa: Now, why do rich celebrities like the church of Scientology?
L. Ron: It’s all about power. You know celebrities.
Elisa: Well it’s expensive too I understand, so maybe that’s part of it but go ahead.
Celestine: He laughs.
L. Ron: Expensive is a point of view, Elisa.
L. Ron: When you make you make, you know 35 or 40 million dollars a year it’s a very different perspective.
Elisa: But a plumber who makes 80 thousand dollars a year probably couldn’t afford you, so maybe that’s why some of the rich celebrities tend to gravitate towards you because they’re one of the few who could afford it. I don’t know, I don’t know. Tell me.
L. Ron: Yes, it’s not unlike the LDS church where they do tithings, so a plumber could tithe the same as..
Elisa: Oh Later Day Saints, okay you’re right, right.
L. Ron: The same as a super star could tithe. But it’s all about the power. See I had/have a lot of power over a lot of people and that’s what they like. They get addicted to people liking them.
L. Ron: And that gives them power. So they’re drawn to more power, people like me, people like them, it’s this big energy, ball of energy, and all it is is a big old head of ego.
Elisa: Yeah, wow. All right, here’s one from somebody. “I would like you to ask L. Ron Hubbard why he constructed Scientology so that it separates parents from children. For example at the age of 11 years old children are taken away from their parents and enrolled in a program called Sea Org, put on a ship taken out to sea, never to live with their families again.” I don’t know if that’s true or not, but maybe you could enlighten us.
L. Ron: Well that’s only true for the troublemakers.
L. Ron: The reasoning behind that practice is again, mind control. So these children come up and they don’t want anything to do with Scientology or it’s just about the time when they’re going through that rebellious stage. We don’t want them going out into the world and coming back and saying “look Scientology’s fucked up because look what I learned out here.”
L Ron: Mom and Dad. So it does two things, it controls the child for the parent, and it also controls the child for grooming for later in the ranks of Scientology.
Elisa: Ugh. All right, another example this person says “If someone leaves Scientology, the family members that remain are instructed to shun them, to never have anything to do with that person again. Is that true? And why if it is?”
L. Ron: It’s absolutely true.
L. Ron: And we do it exactly for the exact same reasons that we separate the child from the parents. Mind control. We don’t want the people that stay within the Church of Scientology to speak with the ones that have gone out and to see that they’re much lighter and happier, and are questioning, and finding for themselves their own voice, and you know, their own way of doing things, because they could infect my church members. And that’s why they do that. It’s all about control.
Elisa: Ugh. All right.