Sorry about this, guys. Sigh.

Me: What about trauma to self? Why do people inflict harm on themselves sometimes like cutting? What’s behind that, spiritually?

Jamie (laughing): He immediately goes to choking oneself while they’re whacking off.

Me: Erik! What’s going on with you today, you little perv!

Erik: Well, if we’re going to talk about it, let’s talk about all the corners.

Jamie (to Erik): Mmm. No visuals, please. (pause) We’re done, Erik.

Jamie and I laugh.

Me: You’ll never be the same after today, Jamie.

Jamie: He’s just enjoying the human embarrassment.

Jamie (to Erik): Of course you can embarrass me. We know you’re capable of it. You did it. You achieved it. Move on. Be professional.

(Pause)

Jamie (to Erik): Yes, yes. Why people cut each other, why they cause trauma to themselves.

(Pause)

Jamie: He’s relating it back to the bulimic and anorexic. It’s the same kind of self-sabotage and destruction; it’s just done with a different technique.

Erik: Yeah. One is more showy than the other, but it’s still causing physical pain. There’s several definitions. Okay, some people find pleasure out of it. Some people just need the control, because they’ve figured out that they can only control themselves. Some people need the secrecy of it. That’s a control issue too, like nobody’s going to know but them. So, secrecy falls under the control issue. Then there are some who need to feel pain. That’s the punish thing I was talking about before—the sabotage. So, the person who feels pleasure from harming and ruining themselves, like pleasure can also be a release. Like I did this horrible thing. I’m defining it as horrible, cuz that’s the way I’m viewing it, and I did it on purpose, so I’m going to cut myself three times and I’ll be better for it.

Me: Hmm. And that’s pleasure because it’s relief from their perceived sins?

Erik: Right, and that’s a loud, loud scream that this person grew up without the parents giving them boundaries—without the parent saying, “No! You cannot do that!” And it was probably a child who really pushed the boundaries and the parents just gave up. Really, the child was just testing the surroundings to make sure the walls were secure so they could feel safe. But the parents said fuck you. I’m tired of handling this shit. Go be free.

Me: Yeah.

Erik: And that was the worse choice that they could have given.

Me: They don’t want the freedom, so that’s why they to set up some controlling boundaries of their own.

Erik: Right.

Me: Okay. I got it.

Erik: But what sucks is the child defying all the rules makes it look like they do want the freedom. But they don’t like anything that’s been given to them or handed to them. Really what they need to know is that it’s consistent and strong love. It also can come from a child who is very quiet and doesn’t know how to communicate. So, they’re not going to break the rules. They’re just going to be quiet and hide. And to hide they’ll cut themselves in a very odd place where it can’t be seen. Always underneath the watch lines. Always underneath the bra lines. Or near the feet where the socks will always cover it. There’s the randomness of how secret they want to be when really what they want is to be heard.

Me: Oh, wow.

Erik: And it was the parents or the environment or the surroundings that never gave the person a voice, so they just gave up on themselves. They stopped talking.

Me: Of course, like you said when you spoke about victims and abusers, the arrows go outward, too.

Erik: Yes! Yes! You see it! So, it was the parents providing it and the child not asking for it. It goes both ways.

Me: Amazing, Erik, as always.